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I wasn't quite sure where to post this, so I figured I'd try General Discussion first.

How can I remove the headlight/tail light from objects I give the "moving" attribute to? (I notice that the stock train cars don't have them.)

Also, (and more importantly), is there a way to remove the train whistle from moving objects? (selectively... not with FIXALL.POD)

I have so many uses for moving objects that aren't trains!

Clawfford, the Big Red Cat

Lol! I just realized that. There's no general "track-making" room in here, as the truck-making room appears.

I imagine traxx may be the closest to a track-making room.

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- BigDOGGe's Boneyard ...The Best Custom Trucks in MTM2 -

I know that it's not possible to be selective about the whistle. You either use it for all of them or for none.

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"In my restless dreams, I see that town, Silent Hill..." - Mary, Silent Hill 2

> I wasn't quite sure where to post this

This is fine. However, just as an fyi, since traxx is the track making program, most track questions go there. I suppose tracked2 for track making adds to the mix but nobody really uses it anymore.

> How can I remove the headlight/tail light from objects I give the "moving" attribute to?

Can't be done. The only moving objects TRI imagined were trains, so the head/taillights were built into the moving property. There's no way around it... that anybody has found.

> I notice that the stock train cars don't have them.

oops. Yes they do. The head light is designed to fit the front of the stock engine, so it doesn't always fit other cars. Likewise with the tail light, tho I haven't played around with that one as much. Sometimes you'll find the tail light gets buried in other parts of the model so it 'appears' like it's not there, but it is. The headlight, on the other hand, cannot be buried... the beam shines through everything (I know cuz I've tried to block it).

> is there a way to remove the train whistle from moving objects? (selectively... not with FIXALL.POD)

Sorry, no. Like the lights, the sound is built into the moving property. There is nothing, that anybody as found, that permits selective editing of the moving sound.

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Lol! I just realized that. There's no general "track-making" room in here, as the truck-making room appears.
I imagine traxx may be the closest to a track-making room.
====================

---Yeah, but think deeper about it: is this really a track-making question? It deals more with model properties BEFORE they are inserted into Traxx. It might also not be a BIN-Edit solution. If there IS a fix, it might be in editing various support files (HEX-editing the model BIN? yecchh!). So General Discussion seemed the best "catch-all" without posting on multiple boards, even though it isn't really intended to be a "tech-support" area.

I'm sorry to hear nobody has thoughts on the train whistle yet... maybe Yeastman might have some insights? Or is he an unreachable ghost from MTMs past? Killing it on an individual basis would be revolutionary for track makers!

I am CERTAIN that the stock train cars do NOT have a light:

I tried my "Second Story Man" track in Pitch Black with it's custom cars. They most DEFINITELY have individual lights that shine through the car in front of them.

Then I tried my "Clawfford's World" track in Pitch Black with borrowed STOCK train cars. This time, I am certain the stock cars are NOT shining their lights through to the car in front of them. Go ahead! Try it in Pitch Black yourself!

Possibility: Maybe my "Second Story Man" cars weren't touching each other and my "Clawfford's World" cars were? I'll have to check. Is it possible that TRI programmed touching objects to act as a single object with regard to their lights? Hmm... I kinda doubt it.

I will do a little scientific testing.

First, I will try moving a SINGLE stock train car to see if it has a light or not. If not, COOL! If so, then I need to re-run it with TWO cars to test my multi-car touching theory above.

If we DO have some magic cars with no light, then we can begin work. I will try making a copy and renaming it to see if the copy works as well. (It's POSSIBLE that TRI built in some "reserved" model names that don't get the lights. If so, then the experiment ends here. If not, then I can continue to "mold" the train car to my needs. I will try replacing textures, then adding and removing vertices/faces.)

Best possible result: the renamed train cars will have no lights even when moving by themselves, and retain their no-light properties even after shape and texture modifications.

Who knows, yet? Maybe they even have no train whistle! Can you really tell since I doubt anyone has tried moving train cars without an engine...?

I'll keep ya posted on my progress. If I have any success, keep it in mind for my Expo entry (or at least for the annual "Guildy" awards!) )

Clawfford, The Big Red Cat www.gameroom.com/clawfford

I gotta stop using text "smileys" here and at Vales... they always get converted into an unintended graphic!

Clawfford, the Big Red Cat www.gameroom.com/clawfford

> even though it isn't really intended to be a "tech-support" area.

We try to stay more focused on the game here than at kc's tailgate party.

> maybe Yeastman might have some insights?

He pops in here from time to time http://mtm2.com/~bbs/

> I am CERTAIN that the stock train cars do NOT have a light:

The farm road trains dont appear to be touching each other. However, the reserved names could be a possibility. I can't run hardware mode right now so I can't check.

> Maybe they even have no train whistle! Can you really tell since I doubt anyone has tried moving train cars without an engine...?

All models set to moving have the train sound. If you turn the music off in godzilla vs bigfoot you'll hear even the street lights have train sounds.

> text smilies.

There is a check box beside "Disable Smilies in This Post."


Edit. http://mtm2.com/~tracks/details.cgi?thistrack=728

Check out the plane in this track. I think it shows what can be accomplished even with these limits.




<font size=1>Edited by Phineus (14-02-2003)</font>

EARLY NOTES
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This thing could work! It could be a neat workaround with some definite possibilities!

I am testing with the TP8BX1 and TP8BX2 boxcars from Farm Road. I have found that if they are fairly close to each other, then the frontmost boxcar has a headlight, and the rearmost has a tail light. All others in between are lightless.

IMPORTANT: Only the FRONT car has a train whistle!

Here's how it can be useful:

The boxcars can't be too far apart front-to-back (no more than about one 32-unit square) or else the middle cars will adopt the "front car" attributes with a headlight and whistle.

However, they can be nearly FOUR 32-unit squares to the SIDE, and only the forward-most car has the light and whistle attributes.

So here's what I did:

I strung out a "bucket brigade" of boxcars side-by-side (each about 3.5 squares apart.) I made sure that the boxcar clear out at the FAR end was AHEAD of all the others. So now the boxcars near me have no lights or whistles, and only the "lead" car way off to the side has a headlight and whistle!

I went further:

I made a copy of TP8BX1 and called it TP8BX1b. A quick replacement revealed that this new test model worked just like the original. Good!

So I put it into BIN Edit and flattened it to ZERO height. Then I flipped all the roof textures so they were "invisible". This created an untouchable (flat), invisible object.

I replaced all original boxcars down the line with my "invisible" model, and kept a single "normal" boxcar at the "back" end of the line (opposite the "front" car). Viola! It appears that the normal boxcar is moving all alone with no headlight and no whistle! (Way off to the side, a lone, ghostly headlight seems to move by itself, and if you approach close enough you hear the train whistle.)

Have fun! Keep experimenting!

Clawfford, the Big Red Cat www.gameroom.com/clawfford

Gee. That is cunning.

Facinating solution.....very clever.



Perhaps you can arrange the terrain to hide the headlight within a mountain range or something similar, that ran parallel to the tracks.

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- BigDOGGe's Boneyard ...The Best Custom Trucks in MTM2 -

To sum up what we have so far. You're saying that the proximity between models is what determines whether or not there's a headlight?

What happens if you start the models off, but you don't move the lead model? Will the others continue without the light or will it eventually come on?

It would be nice if you could do a picture of the starting formation that shows the distance limit in traxx.

Very interesting stuff Clawfford, well done!

> What happens if you start the models off, but you don't move the lead model? Will the others continue without the light or will it eventually come on?

As quick experiment I cloned Farmroad and changed the lead engine to have a very slow velocity, in game the second engine and car that follows it plowed through the first engine and continued down the track - with no lights and no horn. I then changed those two models to the water tower and the cow and they had the same effect. Thus, it would seem that proximity at startup determines what model will be the train "engine" and what not. (Thinking that proximity plus the velocity/orientation might determine things (different vectors?) I made the water tower go the opposite direction, but it stayed quiet and lightless as it moved down the track.)


correction: the cow, which was the third in line, and thus the caboose, has the little red "tail light" on in front of it.

<font size=1>Edited by Winterkill (15-02-2003)</font>

> it would seem that proximity at startup determines what model will be the "engine"
> I made the [lead model] go the opposite direction, but it stayed quiet and lightless

Last question. What happens if the lead model is rotated 180°, that is, is it a world north/south orientation or a model x,y,z orientation that makes the difference?

New things all the time

edit. tail light should be behind. I'm still having problems getting the necessary starting positions and directions clear. Are we now saying the headlight and tail light is determined by the relationship to other models entirely? And if there's only one, then it will have both?



<font size=1>Edited by Phineus (15-02-2003)</font>

Wow! Good topic, eh? You guys are answering and experimenting faster than I can post!

I posted my Cliff Notes for you at www.gameroom.com/clawfford/trainfix.html so you can see a picture of what my test looks like.

It is already outdated, because I hadn't tested other vectors or other objects yet. Although the thought of a cow with a tail light IS interesting...

I tried my front car with the "moving" attribute, but NO directional speeds, so it sits motionless blowing its horn. No problems! The rest of the train carries onward without lights or noise! (I followed it clear around the "world" just to be sure it never comes on.)

I don't see why you couldn't use scenery objects (each within 4 squares of each other) to create the "bucket brigade" from your "engine" object (the front in line) to your actual moving cars. Just give them the "moving" attribute but no speed!

Clawfford, the Big Red Cat www.gameroom.com/clawfford

> I made the [lead model] go

Correction: that was the secondary model, not the lead. fyi, I hesitated before I posted because I knew I was probably not being very clear, posting in haste. ;-)


> Are we now saying the headlight and tail light is determined by the relationship to other models entirely? And if there's only one, then it will have both?

Yes and yes. I never realized it before but the train headlight and tail light are fixed according to the Z-axis of the model itself, thus, a single model set as moving/train will have the headlight pointing forward along the positive Z axis and the tail light pointing backwards along the negative Z axis, no matter it's orientation or velocity in the .SIT file. (I'm sure those who've hung trains on streetlight poles already knew that)


> tail light should be behind.

My stated observation was based on the Farmroad example - as it turns out the orientation of the tanker car (in the track) is 180 degrees different than that of the engines, thus the weird little tail light shows up in game between the second engine and the tanker car (which may have been a deliberate attempt to hide it).
The tail light will always be on the last car in the train, and the game determines the train car relationships at startup.


> What happens if the lead model is rotated 180°, that is, is it a world north/south orientation or a model x,y,z orientation that makes the difference?

Well, using Farmroad again, I gave the lead model, the engine, a velocity value that sent it sideways, perpendicular to the two following train models. The headlight continued to point along the positive Z axix of the model (i.e. out the front) even though the train was travelling sideways. The third car, the tanker, still had the tail light even as it took off down the track, perpendicular to the engine that I had sent travelling sideways. So, again the positioning and proximity of the models at game startup seems to fix their properties, even if they go their separate ways.

Since only the lead model has lights and sound, it occurs to me that one could rotate the lead model in a train to point at or under the ground to minimize or eliminate the headlight, though the sound will remain.


> Wow! Good topic, eh? You guys are answering and experimenting faster than I can post!

Yep, hehe. Keep on keepin' on!

<font size=1>Edited by Winterkill (15-02-2003)</font>

If the direction of the movement has no effect, then there's still one unanswered question.

Eg. Start up position, and model orientation

<font face="courier new" size="+2"><pre>
<--[front engine]
[next car]-->
[next car]-->
[next car]-->
</pre></font>

Where would the lights be?

The reason I ask. Instead of wasting a model, assign the lead model to a tree. Or like clawford suggests, to an object box. In the case of a tree, rotate it in binedit so the light faces downward when the tree is upright. Or just use a street light. Would the following cars inherit the correct lights, even tho the engine points underground? If no, make a 2x2x2 box as the lead model and place it just under the surface of the terrain. You could even do the same thing with the tail light. If you start the models away from the course, then the train horn would have no effect except for roamers.

p.s. if the theory holds true, one would imagine that two street lights placed closely up the road from each other might blank one of them out.

p.p.s. that turned around farm road car is interesting; needs more thought there. For example.

<font face="courier new" size="+2"><pre>
<--[front engine]
[next car]-->
[next car]-->
<--[next car]
</pre></font>

And what happens if the whole show here is rotated 90 degrees.

<font size=1>Edited by Phineus (15-02-2003)</font>

I whipped out a simple rumble so you can see this effect in action. (Heck, it took longer to find or create sound effects than to design the track! Play it with the background music on!)

Download "Asteroids" at http://www.gameroom.com/clawfford/tracks.html

It's also a pretty good example of a "theme" for Expo 2003 tracks!

Enjoy!

Clawfford, the Big Red Cat www.gameroom.com/clawfford

It's quieter than snowy avelanche... unless you follow a spaceship. A suggestion would be to make the asteroids tumble (rotate on an axis).

In space, no one can hear you scream.

With music turned on, you get the "heatbeat" noise from the original game. The spaceships also mimic the original sounds. The other sounds come from getting hit... I guess you're just too nimble! ;o)

Animated models (other than animated textures) are still in my future. I laid the groundwork... go for it! Build upon it!

(The original Asteroids wasn't even sophisticated enough to have rotating 2-D rocks! LOL!)

Anyone tried altering elevations yet to see if that makes a difference in the starting model seperation distances?

Clawfford, the Big Red Cat www.gameroom.com/clawfford

I know the light on the moving object has been researched heavily for street laps that are set to speed 0 and have an invisable control bar that makes the light come out from the right place.
They were by Oops.
I cant get the file from the mtmg mdels to donwload right.
THey had a really great readme that delt with exact positioning of your headlight.

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