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 Post subject: Expo 2003 - Scratch-built Trucks
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2003 11:58 am 
Glow Ball
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Advanced truck : a truck created without the use of ready-made parts or models.

The idea here is to encourage everybody who is already comfortable with 3D modeling concepts to take it to the next level - to create a truck from the ground up, to make something where there was nothing before, and that is made entirely, one hundred percent by the maker.

The standards for this part of the expo are comparitively open. That is, while a truck must be made completely from scratch, there is no other requirement. Your creation can be based on real vehicals, imaginary, odd, weird or unusual, or it can conform to strict real world cars or monster trucks. And it can be as detailed or game-efficient as you want it to be. The challenge is to make something from nothing, not to force or impose unneeded restrictions. The sky's the limit as long as you make it yourself... and it doesn't crash the game.

As of this date, there will be no rule about what 3D program you use. Purists in the mtm community insist that models created in Binedit are the only true mtm vehicals. And, there is some validity to this claim since Binedit was created for mtm and using it will likely yield the most game friendly work, as well as teach you the most about 3D modeling. There is also the view that "meshes" (models created with other 3D programs) are vertex intensive and which cause problems in the game that range from lag to the noah effect. But while this is possible, it is not an inevitable consequence of using other programs. I, myself, created a very usable truck using photomodeler (see the 87 Jimmy at Beek's) as well as a low vert truck using Lightwave (see Lo-Vert on the mtm2.com truck page). There is no reason to suppose these and other trucks cannot successfully be made using any 3D program available. That said, you cannot avoid binedit entirely since you'll need it to put on the finishing touches. Binedit is a first rate program and we strongly recommend it.

A caveat. Many 3D programs come with sample models, many of which are vehicals. Please do not submit them as your own. You did not make them, so they do not qualify for the expo. By the same token, vehicals from other games are off limits. If you want to convert something, by all means do; just don't submit it. Expo 2003 is about making addons for our game, and it's about fostering creativity. There's nothing creative about a conversion. Sorry, but conversions will have to wait for another event - for this one, they're excluded. I hope you understand.

For this category, help is available in the form of tutorial sites. Eg. The mtmg's binedit section as well as Drive2Survive's excellent Binedit Resource and truck making tutorial. Additional input may be available as time and/or knowledge permit - in short, don't be afraid to ask, but don't hold your breath either. As always, we'll do what we can.

Anybody who's made it this far should already know where the links are. I also have a demo copy of lightwave seven if you think you want to try your hand at it (but I caution, it's a tough program to learn and there's a 200 vert export limit for models - so you'd have to build anything in pieces for reassembly in binedit).

I hope this helps clarify things.

Any questions? Just ask.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2003 9:47 am 
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Sounds good to me, I do have some queries though. Can you please firm up exactly what is and is not intended/acceptible by the scratch-built rule, by way of the following examples:

I build a truck body by extensively modifing an existing mesh so it bears no resemblance to the original (the body of my Driven2Extremes II truck is actually LordCap's fiberglass Bigfoot body with some, eh, mild adjustments)?

I scratch-build a truck body (gee, I wonder which that could be Image ) and...
- use an engine by (for the sake of arguing) BigDOGGe?
- use a set of stock wheels/axles?
- use a set of BigDOGGe custom wheels/axles?
- modify a set of wheels/axles (stock or custom) and retexture them so that they bear no resemblance to the originals?
- take a frame by BigDOGGe and strip off everything except a few bars so I'm left with only the V shape, then build upon that?

In short,
- does the scratch-build rule preclude the use of scrapyard parts (I suspect it does), and
- does it preclude building something by modifying an existing mesh (I suspect it does, though I ask about the "bears no resemblance to the original" case because I know BigDOGGe considers that credit is not required if you modify one of his parts beyond recognition - that's just him though), and
- does the above extend to extraneous parts like requiring wheels and axles to be entirely built (and rexturing the shocks and axlebars and including a custom sound file and making new headlight/brakelight/reverselight textures aaaaaaand *pant pant*...), or can these be modified/taken from somewhere else, since these items are generally overlooked.

Edit: Gee, I just reread all that, and I realise now you've actually covered most of it, but I'll leave it in to maintain the flow of the argument. For the rest, good luck ruling one way or the other, lol.

------------------
Please use the brake provided and not the vehicle in front of you.
- V8 Challenge online racing guidelines

<font size=1>Edited by Drive2Survive (16-01-2003)</font>


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2003 12:05 pm 
Glow Ball
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Good questions.

- I build a truck body by extensively modifing an existing mesh

Hypothetically, somebody could enter a 'converted' mesh that slips past our detection sensors. If the mesh is modified so that even hyper sensors don't pick it up, we'd be helpless to do anything about it. But let's hold this thought a momnet.

- does the scratch-build rule preclude the use of scrapyard parts

Yes it does. However, there's been considerable feedback about intermediate makers. It's still an open topic whether we insert a new category for customs.

- the "bears no resemblance to the original" case

Like above, if it bears no resemblance then unless you were to state where things came from we'd be hard pressed to show what it resembles.

- does the above extend to extraneous parts like requiring wheels and axles to be entirely built (and rexturing the shocks and axlebars and including a custom sound file and making new headlight/brakelight/reverselight textures aaaaaaand *pant pant*...), or can these be modified/taken from somewhere else, since these items are generally overlooked.

It would be the height of silliness to demand somebody make new headlights (especially after we just updated the fixall.pod), but it's a good question that needs to be answered. So, where, in between the truck body and those things handled in the game by default, do we draw the scratch built line? I think we should let common sense guide our thoughts here. A phrase comes to mind: there's little to be gained by re-inventing the wheel. Of course, that logic isn't entirely justified. However, it's a catchy phrase and we can use the idea to help draw an ad hoc line in the sand. So, anything above the wheel (body and its assemblages) must be scratch built; anything below the wheel (shocks, axlebars, sound files) can be stock, tho if you opt for custom they cannot be from a scrapyard. The wheels themselves are the gray area. I'm tempted to say stock or scratch (especially since we have tiremaker) but I don't think I'll gripe about wheels one way or the other... because if you want to put retreads on your new scratch built machine, then who am I to squawk about it.

- I'll leave it in to maintain the flow of the argument.

A good thing too because you left out a question: - old parts reassembled.

The scenerio goes: I've built ten trucks and for each I built a new part, so now I can assemble all the parts and create a totally new truck. The answer would be yes you can, but not for this expo. The emphasis has always been to create new things. Re-assembling, even your own things, is still from a scrapyard (that just happens to be your own private one). Anything entered to the expo must be made for the expo. Old work is excluded.

------------

One of the reasons for delaying the 'opening' of the expo is to be sure we've considered everything there is to be considered. The aim here is to stir up some fun by creating a few nice trucks (and give legwon new parts for his scrapyard ;-) the aim is not to impose impossible restrictions and to enforce rules on penalty of death. As such, there can hardly be any cheaters. We've never had to disqualify anybody yet and I don't think we'll need to start with this expo. But it's a matter of personal pride and honor. Sure, somebody could conceivably pull one over on us. But who are they kidding? The expo is designed to challenge makers and to do it in such a way that we're all working on the same thing so we can show off our work and compare our creativity with that of others. That's what an expo is. Accordingly, the more entries the more fun. Rules are guidelines only, bend them if you must but we strongly urge people to pick up the challenge and see how they fare.

The only remain question is an intermediate category. Mal?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2003 3:02 am 
easy company
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Technicaly I rank as a rookie truck maker since i've never made one, although i did do a paintjob once for Skata who also went by the zone name Bubbles, it was bright pink with multicolored bubbles all over it but i never applied it to a truck... she was an exceptional rumbler and i thought it would be hilarious to see her go head to head with guys like Thor, Killer, BoneCrusher, BloodBathBill.. etc. with her little pink truck and proceed to sweep them mercilessly off the platform lol but before i finished it i downloaded a copy of traxx 1.3 and never looked back...

where am i? oh yeah! i've had some unique truck ideas for a while that were inspired by my other daughters toys that would require some heavy binediting from scratch but i know that even with 6 months of time that would not be enough to do it all, maybe it would i'll certainly try but if not an intermediate class would be a welcome failsafe :o).

of course anything i end up entering will be non eligible for any lavish prizes since i'll be on the panel of judges... it's just for fun fer muah...



<font size=1>Edited by Malibu350 (17-01-2003)</font>


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2003 7:01 am 
Glow Ball
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NO QUITTING ALLOWED. It's the only rule that I will personally ensure is enforced to the strictest letter of the law.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2003 7:40 am 
Trackologist
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Application? We have to fill out applications?!? lol See, I'm sitting back patiently waiting, Phin. I'm not being a pain like RepFan and Mal lol.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2003 10:55 am 
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>> NO QUITTING ALLOWED

Uh-oh. Think quickly brain, how can I get out this one?... Image

Anyhow, in light of RepFan's story... I don't know how firm you want to be on the scratch-building rules, but I wouldn't discount a 98% scratch-built (typically RepFan-detailed) truck with a few (still modified) sourced parts as ineligible. My Falcon ute is 100% scratch-built, but it's a solid-body and lacking details like an engine, frame, etcetera...

How about we revise down the scratch-building regulations to include the use of some modified scrapyard parts? Like you said, there is no point in reinventing the wheel - if something exists that with a bit of modification would fit your bill, what's the sense in starting something afresh? (except to get bonus marks in the expo?) If you modify something enough that it bears no resemblance to the original, enough that it may by general consenus be considered a new object, then I think that should be allowed. Given that you stated that one of the aims of the exercise was to make some new stuff for the game, I can't see that modified scraps wouldn't satisfy. If the modifications are extensive enough, what does it matter whether you started with a predefined set of vertices and faces or whether you built it from scratch?

(I once built an entire frame from the MTM2 driveshaft model... all I wanted was a few vertices and faces from which to create the bars which I inserted over and over, and, rather than define my own vertices and faces, I decided to modify an existing, simple model to give me the starting point to fulfill that role. Does that make it any less a custom creation? Certainly a frame bears very little resemblance to that little driveshaft...)

How about we rule that the majority (some figure like 90-95%+) of the truck should be scratch-built (with emphasis on the more the better)...
but also give leeway that parts from other sources (scrapyards or other truck projects by the author) may be used, but these must be modified from the originals enough that they no longer resemble the original item (simply reskinning (say) an engine with a new texture, or adding new exhaust headers, is not enough if it still resembles BigDOGGe's original engine scrapyard item Image ). You may not simply "plug-in" unmodified scrapyard objects.
And/or, we may say that scraps are acceptable if they are reasonably 'insignificant' in the grand scheme of the vehicle (ie. modifying beer bottles into nitro bottles is acceptable, but plugging in an entire BigDOGGe engine is not, unless your name happens to be BigDOGGe and the engine in question was built specifically for the truck you are making for the expo... ooh, I gotta go lie down).

------------------
Please use the brake provided and not the vehicle in front of you.
- V8 Challenge online racing guidelines

<font size=1>Edited by Drive2Survive (18-01-2003)</font>


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2003 11:14 am 
Glow Ball
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> but I wouldn't discount a 98% scratch-built ... truck with a few ... sourced parts as ineligible.

Nothing is ineligible. <font size=+1 face=Wingdings>K</font> Pardon the double negative but you forced me into it. Nothing is disqualified. A truck will conform either more or less closely with our goal... which happens to be scratch-built and which will be the major criteria against which things will be compared.

Give me a bit of time and I'll provide examples and links. I was hoping somebody else would but looks like I'll have to do it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2003 12:53 pm 
Glow Ball
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Phase One

Angus has shown us about Building Bins With Pre-defined Shapes. I think it would be safe to say the bridge he built is scratch built, even tho he began work using a cube.

Phase Two

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The only way I create a complex bin is by piecing together simple bins, usually starting with a truck axle, I don't even remember what my old Certifiably Crazy checkpoints began as...
<div align="right"> -Alpine</div><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<center>Image</center>

If Alpine created the certifiable checkpoints using methods similar to those described by Angus, then regardless of where he began, the finished product is nothing like his source. Is this what you mean by modifying it beyond recognition? If so, then I have no trouble calling this scratch built.

Phase Three - a practical example

Inky credits InterDutch "for his great Dodge Exted Cab fiberglass". So here we see the original dodge in the before state placed beside a picture after inky was through with it. Nice custom work, a fun ride, but it's not beyond recognition.

<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="1" align="center"><tr align="center" bgcolor="navy"><td>Before</td><td>After</td></tr><tr align="center" ><td>[img]http://rhinoseros.com/~forum/pics/superchicken1.jpg"%20width="320"%20height="240[/img]</td><td>[img]http://rhinoseros.com/~forum/pics/superchicken3.jpg"%20width="320"%20height="240[/img]</td></tr></table>

Not satisfied, Inky continued his work. Here we see Inky's first rendition next to the final product. Nice work, great ideas, but very recognizable compared to the first version.

<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="1" align="center"><tr align="center" bgcolor="navy"><td>Before</td><td>After</td></tr><tr align="center" ><td>[img]http://rhinoseros.com/~forum/pics/superchicken3.jpg"%20width="320"%20height="240[/img]</td><td>[img]http://rhinoseros.com/~forum/pics/superchicken2.jpg"%20width="320"%20height="240[/img]</td></tr></table>

Here we take a look at how far the work has come from the original. Interdutch's body, Karmageddon's frame, highly modified by Inky. Conclusion: extreme custom: yes. scratch built: borderline.

<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="1" align="center"><tr align="center" bgcolor="navy"><td>Before</td><td>After</td></tr><tr align="center" ><td>[img]http://rhinoseros.com/~forum/pics/superchicken1.jpg"%20width="320"%20height="240[/img]</td><td>[img]http://rhinoseros.com/~forum/pics/superchicken2.jpg"%20width="320"%20height="240[/img]</td></tr></table>


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2003 2:34 pm 
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Likewise, my concerns and confusion have been quelled. Maybe instead of quibbling over the exact interpretation of scratch-built models (something which is pretty subjective anyway, but it's still good to get it nailed down) I should have just heeded the challenge that opens the expo: to create a truck "... without the use of ready-made parts or models".

I think, hell with it, just build it however you want, and how closely it matches the scratch-building criteria and ideals given above will be stick against which it is judged Image

Oh, that's right, there's one other requirement... have fun Image

------------------
Please use the brake provided and not the vehicle in front of you.
- V8 Challenge online racing guidelines


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:30 pm 
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You made Nitrous bottles from Mal's beer bottle hahaha man! imagine what he'do with my 40 oz Cuban rhum bottle hahahaha

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Jumper
Only those who will risk going to far can possibly find out how far one can go.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 10:16 am 
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So, if I understand this correctly, I can't enter this expo because I've already made a truck, but can't make models? Please tell me I'm mistaken, because if not there will be many truck makers left out.

<font size=1>Edited by RexBoy (26-03-2003)</font>


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 10:33 am 
Glow Ball
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Everyone can enter something for the expo. "A" truck, you say?

http://www.virtualdade.com/trucklot/parsetruck.asp?Id=1336

I think it's safe to say you have a few to your credit.

You've seen the guidelines, you know the aim, there's lots of time, now just hunker down and give it your best shot. We'd be hard pressed to ask for more. Rest assured, every effort is welcome and everything will receive full consideration.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 10:39 am 
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Didn't mean for it sound like I only had one truck.

Anyways, I won't be making a truck from scratch anytime soon, so I'll just leave this expo alone. Good luck with it though. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:08 am 
Glow Ball
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Yep, and I didn't mean to pick on words. I only meant that you have a good resume and if you opt not to take a stab at it your input will be missed. But we respect your choices and that's okay too.


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