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A curiousity.......could there be another compatible transparent face type for BINs?

On occasion when I have converted wheels over from EVO, I discovered that the wheels were semi-transparent, despite the fact that they were composed of shades of grey and black (as bare metal wheels would look). I always "fixed" them by converting the face type to MTM2/shiny.....

From this I assumed that near-black shades with no color info would be partially transparent, but I haven't been able to reproduce the effect with Binedit.....

QUESTION 1:
Could a new face type have been created for EVO that works in MTM2?

QUESTION 2:
If true, could such a face type be added to a program like Binedit? ....Any way to reproduce it on new BIN models?

(P.S....I have to double-check and see if the wheel transparency was a VOODOO-card only effect...)



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- BigDOGGe's Boneyard ...The Best Custom Trucks in MTM2 -

> ...could there be other compatible face types

Yes, absolutely. The start light and the arena bins use face types that are not supported in binedit. The start light uses transparency, the arenas don't. Both work in game but neither open in binedit (yet). There's no reason to suppose there aren't other types as well.

> wheels were semi-transparent

You mean like this?

<center>[img]http://mtm2.com/~mtmg/errors/pics/transparenttires.jpg"%20width="349"%20height="240[/img]</center>

There could be any number of explanations for this, but nothing predictable has been discovered yet. In your case, it would seem zmodeler is doing something that causes it. Those mysterious normals could even be playing a role in it. I know you said shiny types fix it, but I wonder if selecting all and resetting them to normal wouldn't do it... or setting them off then back to standard. There's also the magic number that comes into play.

As for textures, the line is very clear. RGB 8,8,8 is not transparent. Anything below that is. However, maybe the next time you get a bin that will do it every time, you should send it malibu's way so Jr can have a look at it. If we could get this effect deliberately, imagine what it could do for modeling.

> Could a new face type have been created for EVO that works in MTM2?

Not really. At least, not in the sense you mean it. Evo uses a different process for transparency. It uses masks and opacity values. Whereas mtm uses face types. That said zmodeler will cough up all sorts of face type issues. When they go too wild, binedit won't even open them. But I'm guessing some combo of opaque value and zmod settings (with or without normals and magic numbers) is producing something that gives the effect. Again, if you found something (an smf) that did it consistently, we might even be able to fake out the programs and create it ourselves. Maybe this is wishful thinking, but you never know.

> If true, could such a face type be added to a program like Binedit?

Yes, I believe so. Once we know what's causing it.

> ....Any way to reproduce it on new BIN models?

At this stage, the only thing I see happening is to convert to smf, manually tweak the settings (once we know what they are), then convert back. Avoiding binedit entirely.

> graphics cards.

We never know. But the above pic was not a voodoo card. I don't think mal has ever owned one. And goodness knows what graphics cards can do... we've all see the havoc ati can wreak on our game.

Just for the sake of noting. Any smf conversions I've done, I use smurf to normalize first. Too many unsupported face type messages for me to waste time messing with them. Then I open everything in binedit and reset faces to standard or transparent. I've done this for every one of them, not a miss.

Well, here's a semi-transparent wheel set (I didn't alter the face type during the EVO2-->EVO1-->MTM2 conversion).....Hopefully they will be useful for the investigation. They are consistantly in this ghostly form on my machine.

Even though they appear semi-transparent in MTM2 (Direct3D mode verified), I can still open and save them with Binedit with no crashes or errors or loss of the tinted-glass effect.

If I change their face-type in Binedit to shiny, normal, transparent or any other face type Binedit offers, the semi-transparency is lost. I haven't tried to restore the lost transparency effect in Zmod due to my inexperience with that modeling proggy.

Here's the wheelset, and an identical non-transparent set for comparison purposes.....

wheelset name: TRAN (semi transparent)
wheelset name: NTRN (normal non-transparent)


Wheelset with semi-transparent effects
http://mtm2.com/~bigdogge/download/Semi-transparent_wheelset.zip

Non-transparent wheelset (normal MTM face texture type) http://mtm2.com/~bigdogge/download/NO_transparency_wheelset.zip

<IMG SRC="http://mtm2.com/~bigdogge/temp_pics/ghost-tires.JPG" border=0>


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- BigDOGGe's Boneyard ...The Best Custom Trucks in MTM2 -


<font size=1>Edited by ZOtm_BigDOGGe (21-04-2003)</font>

Okay, I just placed these models in a track.

tran08l.bin
tran08r.bin
tran10l.bin
tran10r.bin
tran16l.bin
tran16r.bin

...and they display normally. The next question would be does the transparency only effect wheels or will the truck body also respond with transparency? I tried setting the tire as the truck body but my game wouldn't run for some reason. The other thing would be to have a look at the smf's to see if there was anything unique about them.

hmmm...you may have found a wall to run up against.....

<IMG SRC="http://mtm2.com/~bigdogge/temp_pics/truck-test2.JPG" border=0>


I changed the body to shiny, but left the original windshield, roof, and door windows with their original transparent face type as converted from SMF to BIN format. I placed the transparent portion on afterwards.

I then took one of the transparent TRAN tires and placed it in the bed (no crashes for me on my Win98 machine). I left it's face-type unchanged.

The windshield ytexture color was fairly light, so I changed it to rgb 8,8,8, then used the brighten/darken tool to slightly darken it closer to rgb 0,0,0 but not quite there.

RESULT:

-->Anything on the body below rgb 8,8,8 is fully transparent, not semi....

-->The tire in the bed has lost it's semi-transparency, even though I did nothing to alter it's face type...I just inserted it and saved the body model.

When I had the windshield in it's original color, it was a solid surface, while some black trim around the edges of the glass was fully "see-thru"....no semi-transparency seen on the body model.

For some reason, semi-transparency only seems to appear on the tire models....bummer.


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- BigDOGGe's Boneyard ...The Best Custom Trucks in MTM2 -

<font size=1>Edited by ZOtm_BigDOGGe (22-04-2003)</font>

I just tried to put the semi transparent wheels on bigfoot and I get an unable to open model message. How about sending over a working pod with semi transparency and we'll at least see if it's a graphics card thing (I'm using geforce).

OK....here's the first truck I displayed, the green Dodge.
http://mtm2.com/~bigdogge/download/greenram_transparency_test.zip


I may have found a fresh clue....the semi-transparency only appears in direct-sunlight.

On Gilligan's Island, the effect disappears when the truck passes beneath any object that "blocks the sunlight"...note the snapshot below:

<IMG SRC="http://mtm2.com/~bigdogge/temp_pics/new_clues.JPG" border=0>

Because of this, the effect may not be suitable for windows after all, unless some way of keeping the effect constantly active is found.


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- BigDOGGe's Boneyard ...The Best Custom Trucks in MTM2 -

Geforce3 shows transparency. Passing under ground boxes spoils the effect. They are still semi-transparent; just not as much. Check it in rain or fog. Passing under models does nothing that I could see.

Transparency weather check

Driver Check-in <font size=+1 face=Wingdings color="red">N</font>
Clear <font size=+1 face=Wingdings color="lime">ü</font>
Coudy <font size=+1 face=Wingdings color="lime">ü</font>
Foggy <font size=+1 face=Wingdings color="lime">ü</font>
Dense Fog <font size=+1 face=Wingdings color="lime">ü</font>
Rain <font size=+1 face=Wingdings color="lime">ü</font>
Snow <font size=+1 face=Wingdings color="lime">ü</font>
Dusk <font size=+1 face=Wingdings color="lime">ü</font>
Night <font size=+1 face=Wingdings color="lime">ü</font>
Pitch Black <font size=+1 face=Wingdings color="red">N</font>

[url=javascript:void(0)]<font class="nf">See it here</font>[/url]

this must be a face that the game wasnt made for but is excepting, b/c i got the same results as phin except for night and rain.
i recieved a notice error of "cant envirment map model" in both of them.
my vid is a 4mb On-board trident card.

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Leg's Scrapyard most anything that you'll need to make a truck!

this happens to a degree with prop models as well, check the bridges in arctic wasteland in snow or fog... i didn't reset the face types after conversion and they appear translucent in the game but only in weather... if you check a models face properties in binedit after a zmod conversion it reports transparent face types but obviously they're not not your typical mtm2 but a zmod abby normal face type creation, yet are still within the acceptable parameters of the game, a third face type? yep, may lead to some fun exploiting it someday somehow fersure fersure...

I wonder if Oleg would share his bin saving code. Might be easier than trying to guess at it.