MTM2.com

>> I agree the fish-tailing is a bit of a problem
> Actually, I like that detail. Real trucks and cars do slide around turns

That's not what he means. Or it's not what I was referring to. There is an aspect of pro level that doesn't work well, even in a straight line.

For what it's worth, I ran 9:50's (using a stick and auto tranny) on cumbria (a track a practice more on than any other) so I think I can say I have the driving part down pat, and I still contend there is a fishtail problem on pro level.

Further, for fun, Robby did the <a href="http://mtm2.com/~tracks/settings.cgi?stock=int">stock lap times on intermediate level</a>. For kicks, I was going to follow his lead and whip up some rookie times - if that day ever comes, I'll try to remember to save some replays to show that rooks are not immuned from sliding. But it's a different type than the power slide, and the fish-tailing. But let's not forget HockeyUltima was complaining about slow rookie trucks vs unstable handling of pro level. To a new comer, it's a very important problem.

As for other games, to me Cart was unusable. I'm sure somebody somewhere thinks it's fine. But to me, it's more frustration than it's worth. And, I wouldn't be surprised if some of that technology exists in our own pro level, tho to a much lesser extent. Similarly, evo's rookie level was so pitiful it was worthless too, and they didn't get it right until after the third or fourth incarnation in the canadian jeep evo demo. The real games lost out. I guess that doesn't mean much since we're talking mtm2 but perhaps it does show that different games are, not surprisingly, different. I still agree with HockeyUltima there is a fish-tailing problem, I hated it when I began, but you can get used to it to the point it's not even a factor anymore. Practice is still the answer.


> or to flood it with useless garbage preventing other people to use the chat.

Right click their name, choose ignore. It works wonders for me.


> keyboard vs controllers

For previous discussion have a look at emma's post.

http://forum.mtm2.com/viewtopic.php?t=1752

Jumper has several good topics in the racing forum too.

http://forum.mtm2.com/viewforum.php?f=14



> Most of the MTM2 tracks are on dirt, ... even the trucks driven on paved courses show some dirt-track-like reactions...

Most of the mtm2 tracks don't have terrain surfaces set correctly. I can make cement behave like water and pavement behave like mud and snow behave like dirt. It's the principle that allows us to make ST tracks. You can't judge by appearances.


> almost sounded hostile.

Suggesting keyboards be relegated to activities that do not require the coordination and reflexes that mtm2 demands is a challenge any seasoned keyboarder will pick up on. It may not have been your intention but I've known many keyboarders that'll give all racers a run for their money, and take pride in doing so because of the extra skill required. Your comment is tantamount to saying truck making is like doing jigsaw puzzles or paint by numbers. It's not true of course but I imagine many truck makers would find the comaprison distasteful... even if it was expressed as a personal viewpoint or preference.

I am one of those "keyboard" racers, I've never used a wheel, and I don't need one.

Using a wheel may be good for some, but it's only advantage over a board is, gradual throttle and brakes. With a board, it's full ON or OFF, other than that, if you learn to work around that, there is no advantages to a wheel. When turning, just start turning way before the corner, with more of a "tap" on the keys, if you press and hold, it'll slow you down.

When I used to race, depending on the track, I would run alot of guys set on Pro, and I would run on Rookie, and usually win. That depends alot on the track, that only works on some smaller, tighter circuits. But it can be done.

I run Pro all the time, and I agree about the rear over-steer, it's crazy, and un-realistic. But even with a keyboard, don't consider it a handicap, it's not. I'm proud to be a "keyboard" racer.

People's biggest problem with trying to drive in Pro, is that they gear way too high. Always set the suspension on Soft, and the tires on Medium, for all race tracks. Then just adjust the gearing accordingly. Most tracks you can cut some pretty good times on 1400 to 1500. Some high speed Rally tracks, 1700 or 1800 is a good rule of thumb. I know for a fact, as a keyboard guy, you'll never use 2000 on any track, and 1900 is even out of hand.

Some shorter, smaller Circuits, with a board, I run 1200 alot and still cut the same times as the wheel guys, no matter what gear they use. Preacher's SLO_Pace Circuit comes to mind...

And I just have to throw this in there... if you're having problems with trucks over steering too much, try some of my trucks. I have hated this problem since day one. So when I started building trucks, I studied the truck's .TRK file, and learned to tweak it very well, and I'm really proud of the way my trucks handle. I try to make my trucks "lean" more in the corners, which makes them corner better, so guys like me that use a board can compete... unfortunately, that also made the wheel guys faster that use my trucks too... oh well. I still hold many lap records, and a board is all I've ever used.

It's all in fun anyway, that's the part of racing, someone HAS to lose. Just gear and drive the right way, and use the right trucks, and it will cut down the chances that, that person will be you.

Man I miss racing online...

Hehe I know HockeyUltima must be going, "Geez, I just asked a simple question guys" lol. Before I return to where we jumped off on this radical tangent, my advice to you is simple, Hockey:

Get a controller if you don't already have one, come online and race with us, save replays of races where guys are getting fast laps, watch the replays on our HoF, "ride with" guys who are getting fast laps, and last but not least - practice offline. That's what it takes. Again, you're never going to get the kind of competition using the games' AI that you will online.


Ok, now where were we when we kinda jumped off topic lol. Yep, all good points, and to answer your question BD, all the times on our HoF were run in pro mode/manual transmission.

Still, to qualify what's been said about keys vs a controller, unless a keyboard user has extraordinary coordination, timing, and machine-like reflexes, there are some tracks they simply won't be able to run as well as people equipped with controllers. Cumbria is certainly one of them. Valley of Kings, ZTrip 99, Paris 2 Dakar 1, and any number of tracks that involve a combination of pitching your truck just so or moves where going hard into a turn, all the while massaging the accelorator then tapping the brake at a predetermined point to net a desired effect . . . and yes, there are tracks where that sort of thing is involved. Of course, techniques of that variety are generally only required when executing some kind of an unorthodox shortcut, but I assure you, I'm not exaggerating the point.

But generally speaking, sure--a keyboarder with skills is just as dangerous out there as the next guy. Example: check out Bimmer's time on World Grand Prix 1. Pretty dang tough, and it involves two 180º turns. The kid is growing up lol.

Glad to hear you got your wheel fixed, BD. As for only being familiar with two tracks in our lists . . . man, we've got some classics lol, so if you raced from '99 to '03, I'm sure you've seen quite a few of the tracks we've run. Yep, there are some newer tracks on those lists, but lots of old stuff, too. But hey man, come on out - be glad to have ya aboard!

And now for RF, and I'll make this quick lol.



I tell ya what, homecheese, if you can run 1:07s at 1200 on SLO Pace, I'll . . . I'll . . . I'll let you adopt Bimmer lol. It's not gonna happen, RF. I used 1700 on that, and I know darn well no one, regardless of whether you use a keyboard, wheel, joystick or surfboard is going to hit 1:07s at anything under 15 lol - it ain't gonna happen. Or try 1200/1300 on Crosswinds and see if you'll pull 1:00 times lol. You won't.



Also not true. There are tracks out there whereby med suspension affords you tighter cornering (Blacktop 204, Cross Traphix, Moparz Mayhem to name a few). By in large, yes, a lot of tracks are well suited for med cut, but if the track maker set the texture type to cement, you're much better off with shallow tires (Flat's Formula Race, World Grand Prix 1, 2, 3). As Phin mentioned, you can't actually determine what tire cut to use based on a visual inspection; you have drive it. Lebanon Valley Speedway - deep tires, med suspension. If you don't use those sets, you'll be sliding all over that thing lol - try it. Interestingly enough, during the MTMG project we found that quite a few of the older tracks (MTM 1) that had paved roads did require shallow tires.

LOL this is pretty good stuff I think, this topic. I'm a believer that anything's possible pretty much . . . except 1:07s on SLO Pace @ 1200 lol. I was having a discussion with rustybadmudder (formerly WARc_Badmudder, very fast guy), just last night about lap times. He's going after Shaggy's time on Construction Zone, as well as trying to regain the top spot on SLO Pace. I told him any time can be taken. It pretty much comes down to how bad you want it, and whether or not you're willing to pay the price to take it. I believe that's true, however lol . . . until someone on keys can beat the lap times on tracks like Cumbria, Paris 2 Dakar, Valley of Kings, Zoon Subway, ZTrip, ZooN C&C, Strip 'N Go Coal, Mud Moshin . . . I'm sticking with my theory that keyboarders have limitations. Now I know RF is gonna contest it, and that's fine lol. The numbers are right here - prove me wrong pal lol.


Ya know, I forgot a couple of guys when I was mentioning names of fast lappers:

ROXc_SS
ROX_Marlboro
ROX_Adam0013
ATW_WannaGoFast

Course there are many more - I just stuck to the names of guys I've actually raced.

If Cope is done patting himself on the back, my best on Pace is 1:10....

But unlike you guys, I don't take shortcuts. I stick to the track, I only cut corners on a couple that are just dumb not to.

I've raced with you many times Cope, I know how you and many others drive. I prefer to stay on the track and enjoy the beauty the author put into it, I just prefer to make the scenery go by very fast.

But aside from shortcuts and cutting corners, I know what makes the SLO guys as fast as they are, it's what they choose to drive when they do it.

To each his own, find some tracks you like, run them alot, and find the quickest way around each one, if you think you can go faster, gear up or whatever you want. Almost every track here has suggested garage sets on each one.

LOL there aren't any shorts on Pace, bud - nice try though. My theory stands; a keyboard will never be able to match a controller track-for-track. I don't mind that you disagree, but my thing is if you make a claim, back it up lol.

> if you make a claim, back it up

http://cownap.com/~tracks/details.cgi?t=3883

Yep, already made note of Mal's time on that track earlier. But again, "track-for-track" a keyboard won't match a controller. Smoke 'n Mirrors isn't cake and ice cream, but it's not all that difficult either. There aren't any complex maneuvers in that track, hence overall it's fairly easy to run. Mind you, I already said Bimmer took one of my times, but he dang sure won't be taking many more lol. And neither will anyone else using a keyboard lol.

Oh and RF, here are some tracks without shorts for ya to try your hand at:

Crazy 2002.5
Crosswinds
Mud Moshin
Zoonette Euro
Y2k Supercross
Superbowl II
Visa
Versa
XLR8
Popcorn Ate

Let me know when you're done with those - I'll give ya some more lol.

I think most people would use a wheel if they could, then stick, then keys .. however I do see Mals point about the bolting things down stuff ..

I just hooked up my wheel for the first time in like 2 hmm well about a year and a half .. and maaaan its in the way.. I was using keys for a little bit and Ill tell ya it dosent take to long to get pretty good with them ..

Its like anything in life I think .. your only limited by how bad you want it ... and you can kick the back end of the truck out just as easy with the keys,, its the over steer and having to corect thats the killer.. IMO

Yep, that's part of it, World - it all goes toward my claim that in the long run a controller will fair better than keys. We ran a tourney on Zoon Subway years ago, and there's this short where you pitch yourself off a platform. When you land, you have to go in the other direction (it's basically a 180º, but a tad unorthodox). I was in the room with N8 and ROX_Adam0013. Adam goes off the ledge first, then me, then N8. This guy turned his truck so that when his tires left the platform, his truck was turning while he was in the air and falling lol - it's the wildest move I've ever seen. When he landed his truck was in perfect position. I've tried to duplicate that move for the longest - can't touch it. It's no surprise to me he owns the HoF on that track, and in my opinion, I don't see anyone taking him out lol. But . . . if someone does take his time, it won't be a "keyboard practitioner" lolol. I'd put money on that lol.

Yup, very true. Sometimes I find myself in a good race against someone who is using something other than keys, and we'll take the same corner very closely, and I may oversteer...and that's it for me lol, with keys it's hard to correct something such as an out of control rear-end "fish-tailing", or oversteering. However, someone with a wheel or joystick can, with relative ease, correct oversteering and out of control rear-end sliding.

That was my point earlier when I suggested game controllers over keyboard steering when playing driving games.

When I get to the fastest classes in SPGT, I'm swinging the wheel back and forth quickly like I'm sawing wood, using counter-steer and fine touches to maintain my angle around the turns (along with throttle manipulation)....

Still, some folk are more than happy using keys to drive, and all I can say about that is, as long as you are enjoying yourself, use whatever controls you prefer. More power to ya...

YA .. zactly BD .. having fun should be the most importaint part .. who is the quickest ..faster, what have you .. comes secound .. but just so you all know..

I AM the fastest .. so you can close this post right now ..

> I AM the fastest .. so you can close this post right now ..

Dream on man... I'm so fast that I usually end up beating myself half the time.... roflol

lmao

Yeah? Well, I'm so fast, half the time I end up beating my laggy 56k ghost that follows me around!

Oh, and World tells me that this GT tag at the end of my name takes off a few seconds from my lap times and adds HP. lolol

Wholeheartedly agree . . . as long as there's no "wheels are the best for this game" and "I can run the same laps as so & so using 1200" lolol. I mean let's just call it what it is - malarkey lol.

Oh, I still say "wheels are the best for this game" . Just take it as my opinion, and not as stated fact that applies to all.

I honestly believe that using a wheel in all driving games can teach some driving skills that are useful in the real world, while a stick or keyboard won't do so nearly as much. Does that mean wheel-users will win the game every time? Of course not.

P.S.....All that hot air I'm spewing makes me lighter, and so much faster......zoom zoom zoom.......

LOL that's cool man - no prob; everyone is allowed to their opinion. You were passing it off as fact initially though.

Hope you come out and do some racin with us - you'll have a good time, bud.

Yup, you definitely should. Check out our site for the current lists we're using, pick one to d/l and head onto the zone.

Like Cope said, our lists have a great variety of old and new tracks of all kinds.

If I don't drive, does that mean I'm still allowed to use a stick?



Leave me out of this.

Well, it's what I believe, so to me, it IS fact. To others, it's just my opinion (and justly so).

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it ....





Depends on what you mean by "stick" (bad attempt at adult humor...).