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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 3:24 pm 
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I think i now what's wrong there. strange that i didn't get that error.
There are lots of objects there. The bamboo fence follows the turn you have to make, but it all were very small objects. So i think there must be to many in that area.
I'll change it to another object. petty, because i really liked that one.
Well, i'll see what i can find...

g'night Cope [;)]

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 3:51 pm 
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Fixed, just threw away half of those textures. I think you still can see which way to drive, and the good think is that i have some spare textures now that i can place where you guys think something needs to be fixed [nyuk]

The reason that i did not get that error maybe was that my visibility was at 50%. Can't understand why tho, i never touch that. My kid son has been playing, so i think he changed it, dunnow.
Lol, i i was here thinking : "why do everything come so late in view ???". lol, now i know [(-:]

btw, sorry for keeping ya awake Cope [;)]

(x-raid beta still at : http://users.pandora.be/mumhra/newtrack/x-raidbeta.zip )

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 3:59 pm 
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> Fixed, just threw away half of those textures.

Too many verticies is a "model" error. Low visibility or software mode will help it, but the best way is to remove or spread models out or put some on complex scenery level. But don't change anything until we get a look. I just wanted you to begin thinking about the models.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:46 pm 
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Mum...just drove it and I like it a lot! I just wanted to say that in the airbase section (with all of the chain link fencing), the back section of the area has fences which shoot you over them if you get too close. I'm not sure if you want it that way but it just seems a little odd.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:11 pm 
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... area has fences which shoot you over them if you get too close.


That is a result of a game bug and not something mum did wrong. Bins with a zero depth on any given axis will allow you to shoot through one side but not the other... if these fence sections are near the track and a problem then a simple solution would be to rotate them 180º so the solid side is facing the track.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:57 pm 
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ofcourse that isn't the object, but i've noticed it sometimes happens. To avoid that i've put invisible walls (purple boxes) outside those fences, but i did not have enough because of the 541 models rule in traxx. I still can work on it to improve it, but for the beta i just left it like that because some people might dislike it or give me a better idea.

The rotating 180° thing that Malibu said, i didn't know that. Thnx for the tip. i could try and do that :idea:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 6:00 pm 
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> To avoid that i've put invisible walls (purple boxes) outside those fences

If you rotate 180° you can take them back out.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 2:39 am 
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Phineus wrote:
> If you rotate 180° you can take them back out.


Was planning on doing that yes, but have a little question before i do so. Is there a possibility to see in traxx when they are facing in the correct direction ? Or do i have to drive to the airbase section and try it out ?
I know that, when you enter the airbase section, the fences on the right hand side are facing the wrong direction. So a quarter of the fences (1/2 of the ones facing north and south) are in the wrong direction (the ones on the south side are), but the the fences that are facing in east and west direction, i dunnow...

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:17 am 
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Holy moly, I can't hardly believe this is the same track as the first one. This is much better to drive. I didn't get any errors, but I got considerable lag is several spots. I think that, and then texture and model alignment would be my next areas of attention. Master J can handle the shortcuts, if there are any.

> Is there a possibility to see in traxx when they are facing in the correct direction ?

I don't think anybody has made a study of the problem. Does it happen along a particular axis or direction, does it happen on all flat models or only on some facing a certain direction (ie, the bin oriented on a give plane), would adding a single vert solve it if it was off the flat plane, do face types affect what happens, and like that.

What I'd do is insert a model and don't move it, then go in game to determine what's what. Once you know, you can rotate them in traxx accordingly.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 6:26 am 
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Hey this project is now taking a new direction. It's looking much better buddy. Obviously you're going in the right direction. Give me a little more time so i can have a serious look at it. Such a big project will requier a very good look. But i tell ya. i really liked some of the changes you did. It's going to be fun to spend some time on this one

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:49 pm 
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Ok mum...got a group of pics (little over 30) to upload and dump in here. Won't be done til tomorrow tho, bud. Stay tuned...

Btw, muuuuch improved, in my opin ;)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:17 pm 
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Ok! Here it is.

shortcut found <a href="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/2/xraidbeta2short0to1.zip">on the way to cp 1 </a> This is a major one here. It must be fix

Assuming the cut is fix i'll be going on the intend road. I'm getting a small lag glitch every time i get here. I dont know what cause it neither how to fix it. (this one is just a minor glitch so i can live with it)<a href="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/2/lagspot1.jpg"><img src="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/2/tn_lagspot1.jpg" width="44" height="32" alt="" border="0" align=""></a>


Also getting a small lag glitch when i get here, This one usually occur just as i land front the jump leading to that section. <a href="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/2/lagspot2.jpg"><img src="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/2/tn_lagspot2.jpg" width="44" height="32" alt="" border="0" align=""></a>


The short between <a href="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/2/xraidbetashort1_2.zip"> cp 1 and 2</a> is still there. No problem with me if you decide to keep it.


This statue of boudha <a href="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/2/boudha.jpg"><img src="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/2/tn_boudha.jpg" width="44" height="32" alt="" border="0" align=""></a> sit in the dirt with nothing around. This is just eye candy but i suggest you put at least a palm tree and have it sit on some sort of a hotel to make it even more realistic


Then i found this bad bin here <a href="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/2/badbinnearpalm3_1.jpg"><img src="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/2/tn_badbinnearpalm3_1.jpg" width="44" height="32" alt="" border="0" align=""></a> Like i said before, nothing worse for a racer than something you cant see. Would be nice if you could fix this one.

That village btw really bring in the atmosphere, i love it so much i was going to suggest after you're done with this project to build us a shorter 2 to 2:30 min thing around this particular village. I bet it would be very popular.


This bad bin here is another bugger <a href="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/2/badbinnearpalm3_2.jpg"><img src="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/2/tn_badbinnearpalm3_2.jpg" width="44" height="32" alt="" border="0" align=""></a> Again as a racer there's nothing worse than something i cant see.


Getting to the airport (btw i never seen a B 52 in MTM2 before) i like it. there a small invisible wall just out on the right side of the entrance. <a href="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/2/invisiblewall.jpg"><img src="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/2/tn_invisiblewall.jpg" width="44" height="32" alt="" border="0" align=""></a> Not a big deal as it's not interfering with the intend road. Possibly just something you forgot to take off.


I beleive you're already aware about the fences problem around the airport so i'm not going to mention it lol


Is it possible to put the billdoards stand on higher post? it would be nice to see them from over the fence rather than through the fence. <a href="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/2/billboards.jpg"><img src="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/2/tn_billboards.jpg" width="44" height="32" alt="" border="0" align=""></a> Dont laugh at my drawing talent lmao

Microwave communication tower are normally set on hi grounds. perhaps you should consider moving this one <a href="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/2/microwavetower.jpg"><img src="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/2/tn_microwavetower.jpg" width="44" height="32" alt="" border="0" align=""></a> up on the hill.


That pretty much covered what i've seen so far. Even if there seen to be a lot, i think over all you've done a great job to improve the entire project and at the end, you'll be proud of the result.
The amount of time you put in project like this is what basically keep this game alive. Keep it up buddy. it's greatly appreciated by us racers.




Got the lap down around 7:22 with few minor flaws and obviously far from knowing every bumps yet. you can expect it to fall in the 6 min range witch is reasonable.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:08 am 
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Howdy. I've been testing this one since the beginning but along the way almost everything I could say was said by others, regarding technical notes, shortcuts, playability, and everything. Well done testers!

Great work on the new version mumhra, it's so much better it's almost a different track, and I don't miss anything from the old one. ;) It's a very creative track and nicely constructed!

Also, even before Jumper said it ;) I was going to suggest you use the stone walls and buildings, palm trees and the farmroad textures to create a short circuit, using what you already have as base or creating an all new work, because the look and feel of that village section is great, as Jumper noted.

Now, at this point I must also point out that the crowd models have the same problem as the fencing - the flat bin pull-through effect. I think you should inspect all of them and rotate them as necessary. It's a very frustrating effect.


>> Is there a possibility to see in traxx when they are facing in the correct direction ?

Going from memory here... when you are facing North and you insert a model in Traxx, the front and left (and top) sides of any flat model will be the solid side (the positive axis side).

Quote:
I don't think anybody has made a study of the problem. Does it happen along a particular axis or direction, does it happen on all flat models or only on some facing a certain direction (ie, the bin oriented on a given plane), would adding a single vert solve it if it was off the flat plane, do face types affect what happens, and like that.


<i>In the past I have noted that the pull-through occurs on the negative x/y/z axis of the model (binedit axes), while in-track orientation has nothing to do with it. An extra vert would solve the problem, but offsetting the vertices might work too, so that one end of flat bin is on the positive side on an axis and the other on the negative (picture a shallow angle).</i>


>> nothing worse for a racer than something you cant see

The "SMPHOTL4.BIN" (gray mtm hotel) has this problem, it is a bad model, it needs to be centered in binedit, re-saved and then repositioned, or else made non-collide in the case where it overlaps the road (along course segment two). As it is the collision properties are all wrong. I assume this smp-renamed version is an unchanged version of the original mtm1 bin. [fix-it pod alert]


Now there is an issue regarding the number of model textures used, it was a problem in the first beta and got worse in the second, but even with that I wasn't going to say anything -- until I read Jumper's latest comments about lag. In the first beta there were 412 kb of terrain textures and 4.29 mb of model textures. That is a heavy load of model textures. In the second beta there was 488 kb of terrain textures and 6.88mb of model textures! The model textures alone amount to 104 large (256x256) textures and 97 small ones (the equivilent of about six large ones). These account for the large download and the lag that Jumper has noted. I suspect I've preached about texture efficiency more than anything else over the years, but in my opinion you've used an insane number of textures (due to the large selection of models), which would surely make the track almost unplayable with an old 4mb video card (such as I had when the game was new). With that said, I'm not one to suggest you un-make your track, my only advice is to never repeat this pattern in the future. The problem is that when a bunch of models suddenly come into view, which collectively use a boatload of textures, the game must load them all at once, which causes the pause/chugging/lag effect.

It seems you've collected all sorts of models to use without considering their texture weight, you have many models that use large textures, and in some cases I suspect they aren't worth their weight.

As an example of the way models can be texture heavy - the OLD truck alone uses 8 large textures, which is quite a lot. The single building "SMPBD153.BIN" uses four large textures, no other models in the track use those textures and the building is simply a hotel/courthouse kind of thing, yet there is a whole city's worth of textures assigned to it (chicago) that are never seen! This bulding should be taken out and shot. Also, the single building "SMPHOUS7.BIN" uses four large textures, no other model in the track uses these textures and the building itself is a simple gray building, yet it uses a whole city's worth of textures (san fransico) that are never seen.

I'm not suggesting you remove anything, the OLD truck is mentioned simply as an example of how models need to be considered before use, but "I" would remove the two buildings due to the incredible waste of texture memory. The thing is that most of the buildings you've used are from "Fly!", you've selected only a few buildings from each city - while the ideal is to use many buildings from one city - since the set of models all share the same textures. I realize your track demanded a large variety of models, but normally one should avoid using dozens of different large texture models from many different sources in a single track.

You can reduce texture induced lag by setting models to normal or complex, to give racers a clean run when running in sparse. Billboards, pagan gods, trucks, aircraft and other unnecessary eye-candy would be the ideal target for this option.

Note: the number of textures I counted up above doesn't tell the full story, what I counted is what was in the pod but not used in the track (the large texture count is closer to 70, not 100). If you purge unused models and textures in Traxx you will reduce the download by more than a megabyte, so don't forget to do that. ;)

Finally, if you switch to wire frame only view in Traxx, and fly around looking at models, you will find at least two old checkpoint markers you can delete to free up space for two more objects.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:37 am 
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[(-:] Hey Jumper, you may or may not know this, but I thought I would use your image to explain something...

*<a href=http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/2/badbinnearpalm3_2.jpg>truck hits invisible wall under tree</a>*

In the game all bin models have rectangular collision properties regardless of their apparent shape. Palm trees, for example, are wide at the top (leaves) and narrow at their base (trunk), but in the game their default collision properties are defined by the widest dimensions of the model, which is the width and depth of the top leaf portion of the tree, and then from the top of the tree to the bottom of the trunk. Thus a large, rectangular and <i>invisible</i> "bounding box" is formed around the tree, as wide as the top of the tree and extending the full height of the model. This is why the open space at the base of the tree is solid when the model is used with the default collidable setting in the track editor. The trick is to set such models as "non-collide" and then use a small, invisible object box to make the trunk seem solid, or to simply set them to non-collide and save the extra object for use elsewhere.

In the game, if you type "gold" followed by Ctrl-B you can see the rectangular bounding boxes of every bin. In software/windowed mode you can toggle through solid and wireframe views of these bounding boxes by pressing Ctrl-B. Here is an image showing the bounding boxes around the palm trees, with an arrow showing where the truck ran into it in the previous image: <a href=http://mtm2.com/~forum/images/palmtreeboundingbox.jpg>bounding boxes</a>

That shows just how crazy collision properties can be, and how much track makers have to deal with. Due to the limited number of objects that can be used in a track (541) a maker often has to balance the need for creating better collision properties for an odd shaped model against the number of total models available, in order to be able to use them elsewhere.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 4:53 am 
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Thnx for the info, winterkill. I don't know so much about which model needs how many textures, but i just wanted to say that i haven't taken these buildings from several cities. I just viewed the pod file of paris2dakar by smp, extracted all models and art, and used the same buildings as they used. So I thought they all belonged together.

About the invisible wall thing underneath those palm trees. I could make that tree no-collide, and i could 've put an invisible box around the center of it, but i choose not to. Why ? Because normally you don't drive there, so there is no reason. Instead i use those trees as some kinda wall to prevent people taking shortcuts. So they'll just have to stay on track.
Something similar will happen at the airbase section. I positioned all the fences in the correct direction, so you don't get out. But, now it's possible to get in. You don't have to follow the road any more, you can turn left before you enter the airbase section, and drive directly to the cp that's in there. So i've decided to put invisable walls around it. Now i know racers (i should know since i am one) don't like invisible walls. But it was either that, or see people driving through the fences i placed to make a beautiful track. I also could place some mountains around it, but that would spoil the entire view of the airbase section.

The lagging thing i dunnow how to fix yet. i'll try, but the problem is that my understanding of pc's ain't that high, and i don't have any lags here (great pc i guess [nyuk] )

Will start working on jump's comments now (good idea placing those billboards higher) and waiting for cope's 30 [uhoh] pictures lol.

btw, i 'm kinda ashamed, but i fixed it allready for the next version. i've added a MTMG billboard to it.... Sorry, forgot all about it :)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 6:02 am 
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Why ? Because normally you don't drive there, so there is no reason.


At the end it's your track, so i'll go with what ever you chose to do. however lol i drive into those 2 palmtree specially the first one around the house leading to the first downhill part. that one is a killer.
Perhaps i'll make a replay of that part so you can see how i intend to run that particular spot to take that curve.
It's a nightmare to do when trying to shave an object i cant see and the collide portion sit so far out that it incridibly dificult to do with reasonable consistancy.

Again, your track so it's your call. driver will have to live and adapt to whatever it is.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 12:28 pm 
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Yeah, I think trees within reasonable proximity to the road should be set to no-collide and refitted with object boxes. The rest can just be set to no-collide...just incase you have explorers or someone gets lagged out in the middle of nowhere. Trying to get back on the track while running into things you can't see is...well, I've seen a few racers get hostile over that sort of thing lol.

Anyway, something to consider.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:14 pm 
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Allready fixed it that way before you replied, cope. Thought about what Jumper said, and he must be right there. So all trees are no-collide, and the main ones have a invisible box around the trunk.

Now i'm trying to reduce lag by switching some of those models to normal scenery instead of sparse.
I can find 2 minor glitches.
The first one is when you jump out of Paris. That is strange, because there are hardly any objects there. S i think it has to do with the complete change of textures, i dunnow. I've removed the zeppelin, and will maybe remove those 2 trucks (OLD and death), but i don' t think that's the problem, because they are not yet in view at the point where your truck lands.
The 2nd one is when closing in on the airbase section. I've put all billboards, the B52, and some of the choppers on normal scenery, but i still have a very small lag when the OLD-truck comes in view. maybe i'll remove it completely and putt the billboards and stuff back to sparse.

Also i've put all models that is just used as eye-candy on normal, but it ain't that much as i thought it would be.

In Paris the bad houses are gone, replaced them with others.

All shortcuts are fixed.

So i'm almost done, except texture and model allignement. And i had one little question. Is the direction in which you have to drive clear enough in the dunes part (without roads) and the desert part that resembles that first one ? Do those small yellow markers help, and should i place some of them in the desert ?

For now, i would upload it, but i run outta time, so it'll be for another time ;-)

thnx a mill to all testers here...

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:49 pm 
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I got some pics to show ya still, mum. As for the dunes and the directional arrows and vegetation you put in to help racers navigate thru that portion of the track, I thought you did a nice job--kept it subtle, but definitely managable. It might take a few runs for some to become completely comfortable with the layout thru there, as well as how you used the vegetation to help guide racers before they opt to go "mapless", but that can be said about a lot of tracks. :)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 6:48 pm 
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Yup, the visual cue's are ok. There maybe a few spot were another marker could've been used but after a few run it will be fine. I'm out for the weekend, so it will have to wait until next week before i touch it again.

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