x-raid beta

OLD_mumhra · Post by **OLD_mumhra** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 1:38 pm

Hey guys, my sixth track is ready for beta testing. it's january, and in Europe that means the Dakar.
So i wanted to make it look like a Paris-Dakar race, but i didn't call it that way because the Dakar's by SMP are way to beautifull. I did not want to make a sequal on those because i just can't top them. So i called my track X-raid, the prettiest car that is entering the Dakar this year (BMW X5 X-raid).

The track consists out of 4 major parts.

The first one is the start in Granada. I took Granada because i do not have enough objects to spare to create a city like Paris. In this part you start on a concrete road, which changes to a dirt road rather quickly. It takes about 1.15 (or was it 1.45

[:-)] ) min to cover. Normally there should be no sc's here, but maybe you'll find some.

The 2nd part is hughe. the African desert with very fine fech-fech sand. There are hughe sanddunes (some will find them to big), but i did that because irl the sanddunes are over 100 ft high. No real high speeds, although the straights are very long. No short cuts either. I hoped i've placed enough objects so it wouldn't get boaring. Will take about 5 minutes to cover this part.

The 3rd part is driving through the dunes near Dakar. It consists of 2 parts. the first is on a gravel road which is very slippery. best bet is steering with full throttle in order to turn the truck. It will take about 1 min to cover this road (if you follow it). The 2nd part here has no roads, just dunes. drive where you want. The map is not near the shortest road, but it is the smoothest. Following the map takes about 1.15 min.

Last part only takes 30 secs. It's the finish on the beach of Dakar, near the atlantic ocean.

Normally 1 lap should do it, since start and finish are not at the same place. Driving from start to finish will take about 9 minutes. However, you can drive back to the start in about a minute by following the hughe bridge.

You can down it here : http://users.pandora.be/mumhra/newtrack/x-raidbeta.zip

all comments are welcome

SLO_Jumper · Post by **SLO_Jumper** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 4:05 pm

Some very interesting stuff in there Mum. I had a lap around and gotta get rdy for work but i'll have a better look at it tomorrow morning and will give you some input about it.

First look felt a little to long (a lot actually). But the concept itself is great. i like the idea of switching from one type of ground to another. i dont have time to look out for cuts yet, but i'll do when i get back from work

SLO_COPE · Post by **SLO_COPE** » Thu Jan 08, 2004 6:26 pm

Got it, and I'll check it out and give ya some feedback, mum!

SLO_Jumper · Post by **SLO_Jumper** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 9:00 am

Humm, i found cuts and things that need to be fix. i made replays of cuts and took some pictures too. i'll try to write some comments later today so you have something to work as soon as possible.

SLO_Jumper · Post by **SLO_Jumper** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:08 pm

Ok here are my comments.

Here's a replay showing a shortcut found between <a href="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/xraidbetashort1_2.zip">CP 1 and 2</a></div>

This next replay show another short between <a href="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/xraidbetashort2_3.zip">CP 2 to 3</a>
This last one show a short between <a href="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/xraidbetashort12_13.zip">cp 12 and 13</a>

Now between cp 2 and 3 i found these trees. Not only they're floating above the ground but they're floating over the water. I suggest you replace them so that they sit on the ground.
<a href="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/floatingtrees1.jpg"><img src="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/tn_floatingtrees1.jpg" width="44" height="32" alt="" border="0" align=""></a> <a href="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/floatingtrees2.jpg"><img src="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/tn_floatingtrees2.jpg" width="44" height="32" alt="" border="0" align=""></a>

Now, Remember this is only my opignon as a racer, the track is yours so you can chose to do what ever you want with my comments.
My next point is, it's an extremly long track and most of it become a drag as we're racing for ever on extremly long stretch on a ground where it's next to impossible to learn where the smoothest line is so you cant really redo your line from one race to another. In other word, a fast lap would only be a lucky lap.

There are lot of object in there that appear to be ment as eye candy but they're not as they're completely out of context. For exemple, there's 2 bridge structure in the desert sitting in a place where there is no obstacles not even a road. Here's one of those, <a href="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/bridge.jpg"><img src="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/tn_bridge.jpg" width="44" height="32" alt="" border="0" align=""></a>

Also, This satellite dish. To my eye, such infrastructure would not be sitting along so far away from a road. <a href="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/satellitedish.jpg"><img src="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/tn_satellitedish.jpg" width="44" height="32" alt="" border="0" align=""></a>

Same with billboards. They're normal use is to advertize / promote something. So in theory, they would be positioned somewhere were they would be seen by a large group of the population. Not in the desert away from any road.

Last one, What is this? look like and huge bridge floating in the sky. I think it should be remove, it ruined the scenery <a href="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/whatisthis.jpg"><img src="http://www.teamslo.net/beta_tracks/Xraidbeta/tn_whatisthis.jpg" width="44" height="32" alt="" border="0" align=""></a>

Past experience showed me that tracks exeeding 4:30 min are not very popular, even great tracks. Paris to dakar for exemple are two darn good track but i think me and Cope are the only 2 freaks that did take the time to learn those. With the team, even when i host i can hardly select those good long rally without getting negative comments. Hotshoe made several real good rallies. Crater lake is one of those and only a few dedicated racer like racing on such track. So i very strongly suggest you shorten this one up to around 4 to 5 min at most. Again, that's only my opignon, not a critique. From there, The choice is yours.

Post by **Phineus** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 1:45 pm

My original plan was to leave this one to the racers (since jump's done such a nice job and all) but I'm glad I popped in to have a look.

Minor

- there's a floating pyramid (last one in that line), I can drive under it. You might want to check them all.

- there's a row of ground boxes along one side (left in traxx) of the terrain. It serves no purpose I can see, and can contribute greatly to lag. Please consider getting it out of there. If it's designed to prevent shortcuts, then you might want to re-route your course.

- the course crosses the terrain, makes the map look kinda ugly. Tho we've seen worse.

- a desert tree stopped me dead, which is fine, but I didn't like it. Everything is wide open, consider setting them to no collide.

- the checkpoint markers in the slippery part are too light. Set them to no collide or to zero mass. If I was in the lead, I'd knock them out so other racers can't see them :-P

Notes for jumper

- those couple bridges mark terrain changes and serve as transitions from one type to another. I'm not saying that's how I'd do it, or that there's anything particularly wrong with it, but just saying I understand why they're there.

- the big skyway is the route from the finish line back to the start line. It is also why the map looks funky. Yes, I think I'd do something about that.

Major

- a personal peeve of mine, but slippery textures that take control out of your hands turn me off. I think you should consider resetting the texture grip and depth for the whole tinhorn part.

- the desert rally is long, but that's not the problem with it. Our expo2000 addressed this issue.

http://cownap.com/~mtmg/contests/expo2000/

There are several things you can do to correct it.

- <a href="http://mtm2.com/~forum/images/mumhrasxr ... g">shorten it</a>

- add textures to give it more character and recognizability (lakebed comes to mind)

- the terrain has only one characteristic (rough-ish, rolling dunes). Once you've traveled between two checkpoints, you've traveled them all. Give some a better line, smooth out others, vary the checkpoint markers, etc. Being forced to race by the map is one of the biggest drawbacks a track can have. Give this some visible racing lines. Reward a good driver, punish the bad ones.

- the same might be said for the part following the tinhorn area.

- Lastly, if you must leave that skyway in, then better looking textures are in order. Also, a few support pillers to make it look like a proper overpass would go a long way to making it palettable. It's just too big to take for granted.

Oh, the name is okay, but I see no reason why you can't just call it dakar, if, after all, that's what its based on.

OLD_mumhra · Post by **OLD_mumhra** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 2:11 pm

Dang Jumper, that's why i hate beta testing so much. I've spent weeks making a good track, and you find several faults in less then a day. LOL j/k Jumper, thnx for quick feedback. I can't download 2 of 3 links to shortcuts (the first 2) you posted. Can you fix those pleace, so i can see what you did ?

I'm still waiting on Cope's comments, because i really would like to know his comments to [;)]

A few comments on what you said :

1. track is long, very long, but so is the Dakar. I can't understand some people having troubles with a long track. An average track is 3 minutes long, and we race 3 laps on it. That's 9 minutes, same as here. However you are right about the no good lines part. The desert part is just driving, no good lines so a good lap is a lucky lap. I've raced a few laps against Evil on this one, and i soon saw that all is lost or gained in the final section (the dunes part without the gravel roads). Seems kinda pointless driving over 7 minutes for nothing, and after that seeing who's best in the last 2 minutes. So i'll prob shorten the desert part, as well as the dunes with gravel roads part.

2. floating trees. Right there, i've changed a few heights here and there just before i uploaded the track, and seems like i have forgotten those trees. Will fix it.

3. covered bridge textures. I actually used those to cover the fact that i don't make my own textures. I don't know what program to use or how to do it. There isn't a texture that has a beautiful transistion from one texture to the next. maybe for the first bridge (grass to desert) i'll find one, but at the 2nd bridge (desert to dunes) i will never find one.

4. sattelite dish, think you are right, had doubts about it myself

5. billboards. i've placed them in the desert to make it less boaring. since it takes a long time to cover it. Some sort of tribute to every team i play mtm with (hope i haven't forgotten one [:-)] )

6. The hughe floating bridge you see actually is the road that takes you from finish back to start as fast as possible, so i can't erase it. I can replace it a little, but as the track is now you will always see it somewhere. However, when i shorten the desert part, i can hopefully make sure it's far enough away, so it won't show itself. I'll have to try that..

Final comments. I think i can shorten it, but to 4 minutes is almost impossible i guess. I'll see what is possible. Knowing myself, if i can make it that short, i'll try and add the city of Paris to it, so i will be back at a long track then

Whatever i do with it, i really appreciate your contribution to it. I know what i have to do next (reallly shorten the track lol)

OLD_mumhra · Post by **OLD_mumhra** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 3:06 pm

Hey Phin, thnx for info bud. I see no reason why you should leave this one to the racers. We don't know eachother as well as i know cope or jumper, but you are famous enough to know that your advice is valueble [;)]

I did not even have a pc in 2000, so i did not hear anything about the expo back then. I think you are saying the desert part is to long, but that's not so much the problem. it's that there is not enough callenge in it. That' s why i think i will shorten it.

About the hughe bridge. i did not give it any pillers, because that would make it even more ugly then it already is. The pillars will be to big, so it won't ever look like a real bridge. I think i'll try to make sure that you just don't see it anymore, think that is the best i can do with it (and maybe use other textures indeed)

Adding textures or cp's is kinda difficult because i'm at max already. if i have to add textures, i have to erase some (traxx only takes 500something textures). Ofcourse with a long track like this, it won't take long to get up to 500.

But again, thnx for feedback Phin...

url · Post by **url** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 3:24 pm

Jumper's links: <a href=http://www.slojumper.com/Beta/Xraidbeta/xraidbetashort1_2.zip>one</a> and <a href=http://www.slojumper.com/Beta/Xraidbeta/xraidbetashort2_3.zip>two</a> [:P]

SLO_COPE · Post by **SLO_COPE** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 3:47 pm

Alot of the issues I was going to raise after a first look have already been brought to light. I would, however, like to address the topic about the length of the track...and a few more characteristics.

A 9-minute long track isn't a problem at all. Yes, Paris-2-Dakar 1&2 are long (7 and 8.5 min laps on average), and I think everyone in the world just about is familiar with ZS Rally. ONaN's Widowmaker, though not nearly as popular, is another very good rally, as well as Yeastman's Deception Pass. The key to all of those tracks is they have very compelling layouts. Extreme elevation changes, twist and turns with banks, angled jumps and severe drop-offs. It's interesting to consider what tracks (rallies in particular, since that's what we're talkin about) are more popular than others. In my opinion Paris 2 Dakar 1 & 2 are superb. Yep, they're pretty much barren where models are concerned, but that was intentional. I remember HotShoe commenting on how they could've included more trees in the tracks (surprise, surprise lol), but in my book, as with Phin's Smoke & Mirrors, the layout draws you in, and the kind of races tracks like that yield makes the lack of scenery all but insignificant.

Phin's point about being dependent upon the map is right on the mark. I recall runnin ZS Rally so much at one time that I stopped using the map lol. If I turned it on, it was only to see how far ahead or behind I was. That's because I could key in on things that provided a reference point to where I was in the race. And yes, I'd highly recommend taking a look at Valvejob's Lakebed Extreme - one of my all-time personal favorites. He didn't throw in a heck of a lot of models, but he sure as heck made great use of what he had in there. Also, his texture work is really impressive, and it added so much to the track.

Like Jump said, far be it for me to tell you or anyone else what should/shouldn't go in your track, and in truth, as I see it, that's not what beta testing is really about. However, "if" you were to ask my opinion of your track with respect to the theme your shooting for, I'd say you could easily afford to lose over half of the models you have in there. Making adjustments/improvements to the layout and landscaping, enhancing/varying the texture work and selectively choosing models (even if only a few are available) that support (or at least aren't contrary) to your theme can have a huge impact on this track's appeal. Compare two of Malibu's tracks: Ragin Cajun and Buzzard Country. Ragin is chock full of models, and loads of sssssssssstuff lol, whereas Buzzard is barren, desolate...and both work extremely well. Oregon Outback is another exceptionally well-made track, and although it's lacking in the scenery department, boy oh boy does that layout keep your attention glued to the race, and then some.

Striking a happy balance of too little/just right/not enough is easier said than done I'm sure, but keep at it, bud - I'm sure you'll figure out what you can and can't live with.

Given everything that's been said, what I'll do is back off and wait to see what you're going to do. If you're going to make radical changes I'll wait til you upload the next version. If you're pretty much set on sticking with what you have, I'll go thru it with a critical eye and tell you what I see...other than what's already been said, I mean. Either way I'm here til this baby is a done deal! ;)

NIR_Cr@$hC@rt · Post by **NIR_Cr@$hC@rt** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 3:59 pm

Welcome to the Beta Room OLD_mumhra. I'd shake your hand but I can't seem to get it through the monitor. Oh well.

Believe me, these guys can really help with beta tracks. Look at Catfish and Silverton to see. Incidentally, Catfish is a completed track and out as World GP 1 on the tracks page. OK that's enough advertising from me. I'll look through the replays and check it out.

SLO_Jumper · Post by **SLO_Jumper** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 4:22 pm

OLD_mumhra wrote:I can't download 2 of 3 links to shortcuts

fixed sry about that bud

OLD_mumhra · Post by **OLD_mumhra** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 4:34 pm

thnx jumper, and ty cope. I haven't started yet, firste going to sleep on it (to think things over):D

And crashcart (is that correct ?), i would also shake your hand (if i could get through monitor [;)] )
I know Cope could help me a lot (he did the beta for citadel-namur) and i kinda asked him to do a beta on this one as well, untill i read somewhere about this beta room. I didn't even know it existed lol. I read general discussion, tracks and traxx forum often, but did not even see this one. Looks great tho [tu]

I have now more input then only Cope's, and i don't feel that he has to do so much work on it. On the beta of citadel-Namur he must have spent hours on it... lol

SLO_Jumper · Post by **SLO_Jumper** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 6:33 pm

Phineus wrote:those couple bridges mark terrain changes and serve as transitions from one type to another. I'm not saying that's how I'd do it, or that there's anything particularly wrong with it, but just saying I understand why they're there.

My point was not about what their job was but rather that the object are out of context. I'd say either find object that will fit the context or adapt the landscape so that the covered bridge become in context. Something like a bridge to cross a ditch.

SLO_Jumper · Post by **SLO_Jumper** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:43 pm

OLD_mumhra wrote: I can't understand some people having troubles with a long track. An average track is 3 minutes long, and we race 3 laps on it. That's 9 minutes, same as here.

The difference is very important. a 3 laps on a 3 min track mean only a number of segment to remember and to master. So it will take say just a few hours to master and remember the line you intend to use. A 9 min lap mean 3 time that much. I dont know about you, but the average brain out there (including mine) will have an extremly hard time to master that long of a course.
The landscape being very similar on a large part of it make it even harder to recall exactly where to go left or right of specific bumps to keep the momentum etc... In other word. 3 time more work to master a 9 min track than a 3 laps around a 3 min one.

5. billboards. i've placed them in the desert to make it less boaring. since it takes a long time to cover it. Some sort of tribute to every team i play mtm with

yeah tot that why they were there. Perhaps they'd be more in context if they where near the small village in the desert. maybe you can make some sort of a control / rest and refueling point and use some of them billboards there. Not saying you should do that, just trowing ideas over. perhaps it will trigger some inspiration. All your anyway.

Post by **Phineus** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 1:52 am

> I see no reason why you should leave this one to the racers.

Time and other obligations =(

There is always a lot going on, even if it doesn't always show on the site or forum. There is just not enough hours in a day.

> I did not even have a pc in 2000

That's fine, but it's also why we held the contest and still host the pages. The lesson contained there are as valuable today as they were then. I'm not saying you must build a straight-a-way, but if you look over what the goals were, and a few of the tracks, you'll soon pick up on the ideas... which will then benefit your tracks.

> Adding textures <strike>or cp's</strike> is kinda difficult because i'm at max already.

Nope, not even close.

Textures: 103 of 512 (lots of room)
Models: 87 of 256
Model Textures: 123 of 1024 (we want to be concerned but you're still okay)
Ground Boxes: 997 of 2048 (you can get rid of over 200 with that side wall)
Scenery Objects: 538 of 541 (yes, it's trade offs from here on out)

As for checkpoints, S&M has, what, five or six? Use the terrain to your advantage.

> .... there is not enough callenge in it. That's why i think i will shorten it.

If I can get away with that long stretch in alphaville, then nothing is too long. And that's not short changing winterwood or dire straits either.

----------

> not about what their job was but rather that the object are out of context.

Sometimes the alternatives are worse. Still, it's worth thinking about more.

> it make it even harder to recall exactly where to go left or right of specific bumps to keep the momentum etc.

Yes, exactly. And prompted a long over-due new page.

http://cownap.com/~mtmg/traxx/sightlines.shtml

I'd probably start with an oasis or two.

SLO_Jumper · Post by **SLO_Jumper** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:20 am

Sometimes the alternatives are worse. Still, it's worth thinking about more.

> it make it even harder to recall exactly where to go left or right of specific bumps to keep the momentum etc.

Yes, exactly. And prompted a long over-due new page.

I could'nt agree more with ya Phin. Very interesting page btw.

OLD_mumhra · Post by **OLD_mumhra** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 2:10 pm

ok, i've just uploaded the next beta of x-raid. You 'll find it at the same location as where the other one used to be (http://users.pandora.be/mumhra/newtrack/x-raidbeta.zip).

Don't think there are no major changes, because it did not took me very long. I don't work in wintertime, so i have heaps of time now. I've worked several hours (some even upto 8 ) hours a day trying to change this track into something what you guys tried to explain of what a good track should look like.

First things first. the length of the track. I tried shortening it, and maybe even make it a little faster and more challenging, but i could not get laptimes below 6.30 mins. Because this still was to long, i decided to make a full Paris-Dakar of it. So it still is an 8 minute lap track. Sorry about this, but i see no way how to shorten a Dakar down to a 4 minute track. So this will have to do.

The thing that struck me most were these 2 sentences wrote by Jumper : A fast lap is a lucky lap
: award a good driver, punish a bad one
I thought about it, and he was right on the mark there. it was just a straight ahead road, where you were lucky if your truck landed in the way you hoped. That's history. Here is a list of the changes :

- Granada part is a little shorter
- Dunes part is a little shorter (and changed grip)
- Dunes look way different then before (hopefully easier to find the right way)
- added a Paris part
- You won't even recognize the desert no more. it's a little shorter, it's flatter, it's faster, but you come across lot's of difficulties where you'll need some skillfull driving to get by fast
- beach part is a little longer, this was done so the bridge from finish to start must be a lot shorter

I hope you guys like this version much better. i think you will (i do lol). I'm not planning on making more of those radical changes i have made now. However, i have some problems with the 541 objects that i'm able to use. I thin i've been sober in objects, but at 2 places (first, windy section of desert and dunes without roads) i used models to show the road. It would be cool if i had some extra, but it seems like i've run out. City of Paris really needs some objects lol.

Just take a look at it, and tell me what else i can do to improve it any further

greeettzz
OLD_mumhra

SLO_COPE · Post by **SLO_COPE** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 2:26 pm

Will do, mum...and remember bud, there's nothing wrong with long tracks, even 8 min long ones. It's just that if a track is that long, the layout should be interesting and challenging enough to hold people's attention.

I'll have a look tomorrow. I work tonight so I'm off to bed to get some sleep.

SLO_COPE · Post by **SLO_COPE** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 2:51 pm

Hey mum, might wanna check this out. When I got to the marked spot in this pic I would get an access error, however, it doesn't specify a file (says "Unknown"). I backed my visibility setting down to 70%, took another spin on it and got this. I've gotten around the "Too many verticies" error before by dropping the visibility setting, but man, you musta loaded it up in that area lol.

Obviously I haven't gone to sleep yet, but I am now. I just HAD to check it out - curiosity got the best of me lol.