MTM2.com

Yep, understand that, but what I was focusing on was this:



That's what I disagree with. Furthermore, I don't think you can compare this to Bankrole, not fairly anyway. With the sharp, off-camber turns, if this track had Bankrole's pace (or anything close to it), you'd be standing on the brakes when it came time to negotiate a corner. Personally I was able to get up more than enough speed in several areas only to have to let off the gas and drop it into 2nd gear to make the turn. Pain In the Grass, The Ruins, Lakebed Extreme and Valley of Kings are examples of rallys that are extremely tedious, rough, and very much on the light side where mph is concerned, yet they're great fun to race...IF you happen to like those types of tracks, that is.

I kinda liken this more to "Mountain Express" by XTCTRMiNATOR, but a little faster. I just disagree with saying that for it to be a good rally it should be faster; that's just an opinion. Hmmm...seems like I had another point or four to make, but I'll be dang if I can think of it lol. Well, if I do, I'll be back!

> Hmmm...seems like I had another point or four to make, but I'll be dang if I can think of it lol.

There's probably a reason for that, you know. Regarding opinions, as you well know, I'm full of 'em ;-) In fact, I think you'll find opinion runs pretty high in the beta forum, on all fronts, but that's probably as it should be. Gives a fella choices. But see, choice is what it's all about and making deliberate decisions. But I'll lay you ten to one odds that the terrain in this track was not deliberately created this way but is a bi-product pf the assembly line. The same can't be said for valley of kings. You may not agree with my assessment, but mal is correct. More care needs to go into Charles' work. And this track is a long way from ready. I just tried to be more specific because it is, after all, the beta forum.


PS

>> if this track had Bankrole's pace ... you'd be standing on the brakes when it came time to negotiate a corner.

Some tracks have jumps before corners that send you sailing off into no man's land if you don't brake before cornering. That doesn't necessarily make them bad tracks, but altering the corner to accommodate racing control and/or sight lines won't make it worse either. Fila, for whatever unknown reason, does this sort of thing deliberately. If Charles comes in and says he's done things with the same deliberation then I'll back off, but I don't think that's going to happen. Secondly, if the changes I note affect existing cornering, then the next step would be to adjust the corners to adapt for the changes. It only stands to reason. But we're nowhere near that stage yet.

Yep, didn't see Mal's post til after I posted...especially since my post, half of it, anyway, sat for a good portion of the night before I finished it off on my lunch break. Interestingly enough, I think it would be great if we hung a sign on the front door of this room that pretty much says, "Be sure you've run the gammut with respect to correcting minor flaws/blemishes before submitting your work for review." Something to that effect, anyway. All too often I think a lot of the beta testing is spent on minor things that should be caught and corrected by the author. That's just one more opinion for everyone to chew up lol.

Well...now that we have all these opinions out here, I suppose it is indeed time for Sir Charles to make the next move. Good discussion here though, I think, and well-made points, Phin.

You know, somewhere in this chat the thought crossed my mind to send you a note asking what you thought about making a sticky thread that outlines a few basic beta concepts (I won't say rules and requirements) that could serve as guidelines. What, precisely, is included is open but the idea is probably right. I'll draft something up and send it your way later in the week for 'correcting'

Sounds good. Just make sure you smooth out the bumps in it. If it ambles along and is too slow, resulting in the reader losing interest, I'll send it back lol.

^ hehe, good one Cope.


Hey Charles.

Firstly, very nice work on the menu pictures lately bud.

Now, I actually downloaded and tried this track in time to post the first response, but I didn't take the time or effort to do so until now. Still, my first thoughts were that this <i>terrain</i> was great, that it was probably my favorite that you've made so far, and that the track was as close to being a non-beta as anything you've posted. Apart from missing checkpoints and a few model problems I was thinking it was pretty well ready to roll. I didn't like the look of or the abundance of the concrete blocks, but after a few laps I thought I could some see the reasoning for them - providing driving obstacles as well as general shortcut prevention.

Driving through again now I find I like the blocks even less, my truck does get hung up on them (thanks to sloppy driving) but more than that I think they're ugly (gritty industrial seems out of place in a national park), and there is just too many. If they were simply retextured they'd probably look better, though there are still too many. I agree with Rep Fan that they've become clutter in many places and that so many are not needed. One thing I can say is that since you used so many you did choose a good, simple model, in the sense that it is not too complex, because using that many natural 'rocks' would surely ruin framerates.

I have no complaints about the terrain, overall I like it. Except for the lake bed you cross over, you should at least lower it about one notch because the "tide" effect of the water makes dry land appear half the time - which happens to look ugly to me, aside from the fact that it's a speed advantage half the time.

I did notice the non-facing trees. Here's a tip: NEVER place any trees until you've selected the ones you're sure you want to use, then place one in the track and set it's properties (non-collide facing), then and only then copy and paste it around. Pasting trees that haven't been set properly is bad news and creates too much fix-it work later. In short, never paste trees without being sure of their properties.

I have not analyzed the checkpoint placment, but at a glance many seem unnecessarily close together. I would also suggest you use moveable models to mark them during develoment, rather than textures, it just seems like you make a lot more work for yourself to go back in to find and paint the right textures, especially if you keep changing checkpoint locations.


>> Got rid of the trimming of dirt around the ponds, ugly ugly it was.

Although imperfect I thought it looked pretty good, and added some visual variety. Plus, I understand how much compromise is necessary in making these tracks, and how textures don't always work with the coarseness of the terrain. I figure making tracks for this game is really about 'sketching' and suggesting reality, not matching it - there are just too many limitations to work within. It's for that very reason that I really don't complain about texture 'seams' and non-blends to those who aren't making their own from scratch. They are frequently necessary because the only way to avoid them is to invest great labor in making customs ones (which can also up the texture count to unacceptable levels), or to simply lessen the possibilities by removing whole sets that don't match - and I firmly believe that possibilites and variety is more important than visual perfection. (For example, "Wilderness" thumbs it's nose at <i>all</i> the rules, and rules.)


Generally speaking, I pretty well agree with most things in Cope's first report.

>> Give the track a variety of appearance that will make the different spots in the course identifable.

I agree with that from Phin, apart from the terrain the track is too "samey" everywhere, something I've never much liked, especially in long tracks. However, a few unique models here and there (already planned) would probably fix that up. It's nice to have a track split into visually distinct regions


>> I think you'll find opinion runs pretty high in the beta forum, on all fronts, but that's probably as it should be. Gives a fella choices. But see, <b>choice is what it's all about and making deliberate decisions</b>.

Quite true, that.


Charles, you've requested a repaint for the barrier (as well as a possible adaptation). You still interested, or have any ideas?

A good texture source: http://perso.club-internet.fr/lemog/lem ... res01.html

Entirely apart from this topic...

As for 'betas', different people want different things, and thus could post their work at any stage of development. I figure the burden is on the author to define what it is they'd like in terms of help or feedback. If they don't then it can be waste of time for testers, who may end up putting forth effort unnecessarily.



>> the thought crossed my mind.... making a thread that outlines a few basic beta concepts

That reminds me, in the past I'd thought about proposing the idea of a "beta checklist" for track makers, to Mal in fact, since he's been such an impressive one man beta-less production company. The idea being to make a formal list of things to check before <b>finally</b> releasing a track (like making sure texture types are set properly), useful even to pros. I never thought hard about it though.

Check this out: Procedure for uploading a beta track (that Wint guy made some very good suggestions)

You guys sould do a check list. People like myself that dont always understand. Please include TREE settings. As Phin said himself NOT requirements but suggestments{hope I got that right}. Seems most feel the way I do on one thing, this track has plently SPEED. I also understand what you are saying about the ruffness {Phin}. But to me {My opinion} youR on dirt in the hills AND ITS A rally. I did take your advice and every model is gone. Also{Kevin's} advice on more hills less flat land and a couple jumps. {Cope} is so right about other tracks, if mine is bad{road ruffness} then I PLEASE DEMAND A RECALL on a big % of tracks. LoL. {Wint} where have you been hiding. I did like the dirt trim myself. But have enough seams already D'oh. It did add some thing. {Mal}, sir your right. MORE TIME ON TRACK. I believe Phin also said that. Well we all say that.LoL {Scrooch} Bro, thanks. I also liked the challenge of trying to cut a little time off by cutting around them. Im re and still working it. I SUCK in the placing of objects. When I put it back up there wiil not be objects yet. Until I have the terrain and course READY. Thanks to you all for your comments and suggestions. Seems I started some thing I wish I hadn't. NO track or game is worth this.

> Seems I started some thing I wish I hadn't.

Yea? what did you start? FYI this is all just beta talk... and I'll do everything in my power to make everybody who disagrees with me regret it for the rest of the day.

That didnt come out right at the end of what I said. I love the agree to disagree you guys do. Fun to watch. I just hated the fact that its some thing I started. My track was not worthy of it. And for that Im sorry.

> I love the agree to disagree you guys do.

Ah, but see, we don't. I'll be sending those guys to bed without any dessert. No ice cream for them when they behave this way

LOL ignore Phin, Charles - it's fun! Meanwhile, I'll be looking forward to the next installment of this one...but do take your time lol.

Oh and to reiterate a point already made (and several times over, I do believe), nothing in here is that serious, partner, so like...knock off all that apologizing stuff! And don't you dare apologize again lol!

>> And don't you dare apologize again lol!

If he does, I'm gonna add Im sorry to the word filter list.

LOLOLOL well I guess that'll pretty much take care of that. Don't speak, Charles; just work that track lol.

Sorry I change name of track and pod. Ok enjoy the debate follows. O'please remove RMRr beta. Trash it. Watch the end of the bridge. Turn right hard comming off it about half way over, you'll be fine. Still a little bumpy. For realism.

Have put a trim around the water of the brown tan color small boulder textures{hehe}. That sounds funny. That are also from Aztec. Looks good and very little seam.

Please remove EPRr. Can stiil use Cp ideas please. If I need touch ups advise, thanks.

Appearance-wise, this is much better than the first version. I still don't like the way it drives, but I'm not likely to change on that (until you fix it, lol). Anyway, this still has a generic-all-the-same type atmosphere. I think the first thing I'd do is put in checkpoint markers so we can see what's what without those painted arrows. I'd like to propose the heights custom set

<a href="http://cownap.com/~mtmg/models/Custom/Mtmczips/ak8ban01.zip">ak8ban01.zip</a>

The stock set are done in pairs and only go up to five. This custom set breaks them appart and goes up to twenty. They are more texture efficient too.

The next thing I'd do is try to build a motif out of the trees. Right now, you are using the pine trees in all spots. The trick here is to put all the same type of tree between two checkpoints, then use a different one between the next two checkpoints, and so on until you're done. Something to distinguish the different parts of the course. Secondly, there are a half dozen left turns that all look the same. I'd put a house on one corner, the scrapyard pickup on the next, a rock at the next, and so on, so that they begin to stand out from one another. Banking one, and not the next is another way to do it.

There's a low spot between cp5 and cp6, if I recall rightly, and it's low enough to be affected by the "tide". Needs to come up a tad, or lower the water level, tho that would probably affect your rivers.

The stands are okay and so are the small bushes (even tho a few are planted a bit too deep).

And that's all I have for now.

Thank Phineus, they work great man. See what I can accomplish between the Cps in regards to the scenery.

Excavation also uses varied road and terrain textures. Don't be shy, put a few in your track.

Ok guys, got a little problem. Redone the trees put some more props in the corners{mostly left}. Now I have a couple areas that gets a tad jumpy. I would like for one of you Pros to check it out. Can I PLEASE send it to one of you to give it a look and see so you can tell me what I need to do for it. Cant really explain what Im saying. You would have to see. Dont want to reupload yet but I think it needs a person that knows what they're looking at and for. Just some advise on the problem is all I ask, Thanks.